Ron and Ed welcomed back to the show, Dr. Mary Ruwart. Her book Death by Regulation demonstrates the futility of the US FDA and was prescient with regard to the bureaucratic delays we have seen with the vaccine for COVID-19. We explored this topic and more with her.
Ed’s Questions: Segment One
Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so their organizations can thrive. I’M Ed Kless, with my friend and co-host, Ron Baker, and on today's show, folks, we are so pleased to welcome back to the show for a second time, Dr. Mary Ruwart. How's it going, Ron?
Ron Baker
Good, Ed. We just got a California Bay Area County lockdown.
Ed Kless
You’re in official lockdown now? Do you have toilet paper and wine?
Ron
Yes. I'm ready.
Ed
You're good to go. All right. Well, let's jump right in. I'm thrilled to bring back, as I said the last time on the show, one of my personal heroes, Dr. Mary Ruwart. It's Dr. Mary, right? Let me just read the introduction, then we'll get into it. Mary Ruwart is a research scientist, ethicist, libertarian author, and activist. She received her Bachelor of Science in biochemistry in 1970, and her PhD in biophysics in 1974, both from Michigan State, she had an assistant professorship and then took a position with the Upjohn company in 1976. Dr. Ruwart was also involved in developing therapies for a variety of diseases, including liver cirrhosis and AIDS. We had her on last time to discuss her book, Death by Regulation: How We Were Robbed of the Golden Age of Health, and How We Can Reclaim It. Both Ron and I highly recommend that book. And as I said previously, it's more scary than a Stephen King novel, because it's actually the truth about what's going on with the FDA. And Ron and I made use of it a lot of the times that we've been talking about the COVID situation. We'll say to one another, we should talk to talk to Dr. Mary Ruwart about this. And now we're happy to bring her back on. Welcome back to The Soul of Enterprise, Mary Ruwart.
Mary Ruwart
Well, thank you. Thank you.
Ed
And you're okay with me calling you Mary, Right. What a tempest in a teapot that whole thing is. But anyway, let's move on to the more important stuff. You are uniquely qualified to answer some of the questions that both Ron and I have talked about, and that we've been asked by some of our listeners. But let's first talk a little bit about what your thoughts are around COVID. You think COVID is a real thing, right? It's something to be concerned with?
Ed
So that's a question, but it's way down on my list, but I'm going to jump right in and ask. So a vaccine that's been developed for that, how effective is it against those mutations?
Ed
Sure. Is that what the mRNA is, the fact that they're developing off of the spikes rather than the innards of the of the virus itself?
Ed
Okay, so that has nothing to do with the spikes that they use. But why is that. Why would doing the vaccine off of the spikes be better than the innards of the cell for mutations?
Ed
Oh, I see.
Ed
No, that's absolutely true. But what are your thoughts? Not necessarily on each individual vaccine. Obviously, no one would know that. But the technology that was used by, specifically, Madonna. I read this in a New York Times article that they actually developed it within two days of the sequencing of the genome.
Ed
Okay, so it hasn't been demonstrated, but it definitely has lowered the symptoms. And this was interesting to me, it was developed within two days, and in my view, and after reading your book, then the last 12 months or 11 months have been process around approval. And this just makes me crazy to think about this. Do I have this right?
Ed
Is there a difference, medically, between something developed as a vaccine, which is a preventative and something that's developed to, say, for heart medication that lowers blood pressure? Should there be a different testing regimen for one versus the other? In my layman's mind, one is about efficaciousness, the reduction of some kind of a symptom, that's a response. The other is really preventative from you getting something. Once it's proved safe, isn't efficaciousness, shouldn't that be tested in a lot larger samples? I mean, that just my logic. But am I right there?
Ed
Okay, and you mentioned, and I've heard this as well, that the messenger RNA is new technology. It has been used in certain other cases; I think they developed an Ebola [vaccine] but they just didn't have enough trials to test it. If the technology proves effective, I want to try to use the right words, if the technology proves efficacious, and that taking a sequence genome from a virus and then quickly turning it around in two days, and that proves safe, can we make a certain assumption about a future vaccine? That future vaccines that are developed in this way, are just as safe? Or is that not something that we can assume?
Ed
You're not a lay person as I, were you amazed at how quickly this was developed? Or was this something that, having been in the industry, you're like, yeah, I've been following this, it was not surprising to you?
Ed
Just quickly, before we have to take our break, are you concerned about it [the vaccine’s safety]? Is that something that you personally would be concerned with?
Ed
Right, and that could happen, it's kind of a random thing. Well, this is great. I have so many more questions, as does Ron, but we have to take our first break.
Ron’s Questions: Segment Two
Welcome back, everybody. We're here with our second interview with Dr. Mary Ruwart. And Mary, I wanted to ask you, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, no tin foil hat. But where do you think this virus originated? I mean, probably an animal. But do you think it came out of a lab or a wet market, an animal market?
Ron
Oh, that's interesting. In the early days of the virus, give us your grading of the FDA’s response, the CDC’s response? What went right, what went wrong? What would you have done if you were in there? Or advising the president? I know it's brutal. But we do want your opinion.
Ron
It brings me back to your book. Because if a private company like Upjohn was responsible for that, and they blew it, it would pay a price. And the FDA and the CDC are going to end up getting bigger budgets, I'm sure. Did the government do anything good?
Ron
I was going to ask you about that, so I'm thrilled that you explained that. I know you know Jeffrey Tucker [Episode #201]. He called the lockdowns positively medieval. What's been your assessment of these lockdowns, restaurants, bars, all these different things?
Ron
Are you as sick as Ed and I are of “follow the science.” Science is a discovery process, right? It can't really tell you exactly what to do. And then, we know science may not lie, but some scientists do?
Ron
One of the things I learned from your book was the off-label use of drugs and maybe in our next segment, when I have you back, I'll ask you about that. But unfortunately, we're up against our break.
Ed’s Questions: Segment Three
And we are back with Dr. Mary Ruwart. Her book, which we highly recommend, Death by Regulation: How We Were Robbed of the Golden Age of Health, and How We Can Reclaim It, is on sale at Amazon and other book places. Please go out and give that a read. It's a great work. And I really think that most people really will enjoy it. Mary, I wanted to talk a little bit about the libertarian policy aspects of this. For those listeners who don't know, Mary, you were once our vice presidential nominee for the Libertarian Party, back in, what 1980?
Ed
Oh, you never got the nomination. Okay, so I have my history wrong there. Thank you for the correction. But I voted for you. Ron talked a little about this, and you mentioned that giving [the vaccine] to healthcare workers is probably the best option. Should government mandate that though, or how should we decide who gets the vaccine, and when?
Ed
And then you get into private accommodations, could a hotel chain say that you have to produce your vaccine card before you stay at a particular hotel, or even a supermarket say you have to show that you've been vaccinated before you come into the supermarket? We would say libertarian-wise, why sure. But then that gets to a public accommodation issue. So this intersection of rights again, we get back to the baker problem.
Ed
Ron, which was the airline that put the insurance as part of its fare [Emirates]. They created an insurance that if you fly on their plane and you get COVID for any reason, they will take care of your medical bills, which is a really interesting incentive to have people come and fly. So a great libertarian solution. On the distribution, I think we can all we probably agree that healthcare workers first is the best way to go. But there is a question of do you then go to elderly the best option? Or do you go to younger folks to try to build up the herd immunity quicker so that there's less distribution? It isn't that clear cut, is it?
Ed
Interesting. So I did not realize that. So it may even be a case that even if they haven't tested it extensively enough to be able to know that with regard to the elderly population. Really?
Ed
It was interesting, the flu shot is 60-70% efficacy and the Coronavirus [vaccine], at least in the initial trials, is somewhere between 90% and 95%. Which leads me to another question. They tested this, the double Jab, let's call it. It's the stick and then a booster two weeks later, I believe. But I think it was the Moderna trial, they showed that there's a fairly high efficacy with just one jab, almost as high as the flu vaccine. So then the ethical question becomes is should we double jab people, or do you get it out to the maximum number of people? This is yet another question that's not, in my mind, clear cut.
Ed
Question, just quickly going back to the CDC and FDA and your grade of F, which I agree with you wholeheartedly on. With your understanding of those organizations, and I'm not trying to be an apologist for any administration, would it have been significantly different if there was somebody else in the White House?
Ed
Sure. But my point is, these are bureaucracies that, regardless of who sits in the White House, are going to behave in a similar fashion.
Ed
Mary, I'm going to go a little bit over in this segment, but I wanted to ask you this question quickly. As I mentioned, Ronald Bailey was on the show about two to three months ago [Episode #307]. And one of the things that he said, based on this Moderna technology, he thought that it is possible that what we are experiencing will be the last pandemic because of the technology that's in place. So in 30 seconds, your thoughts on that?
Ed
All right, well, Mary, Ron's going to take you the rest of the way home. Thank you once again for appearing on the show. We'll have you back in the future, perhaps, to talk about this in six months to see where we are at that point.
Ron’s Questions: Segment Four
Welcome back, everybody. We're here getting a medical degree from Dr. Mary, Ruwart. And, Mary, I wanted to ask you, I've read so much conflicting information from the World Health Organization, from the CDC’s own studies, where do you come down on [face] masks?
Ron
There seems to be a moral hazard, or a Peltzman Effect, that I've got this mask, so I'm 100% safe. And that's not the case, is it?
Ron
Don't surgeons change their masks every hour or so?
Ron
I assume you're a free-trader, being a libertarian, as are myself and Ed. Are you worried that China produces so many of our drugs and the ingredients that go into drugs? We hear percentages like 90% of drugs come out of China, which I know is not true, but in general, do you worry about that?
Ron
What's your assessment of the COVID task force? Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, all the others. They seem to contradict themselves, overall what's your assessment?
Ron
Last time you were on [Episode #192], I didn't get a chance to ask you this. But there was that compassionate use waiver that the FDA used to give? Are you encouraged now that 38 states that allow right to try? [It’s actually national now, every state allows right to try].
Ron
It also amazed me that Britain got the vaccine jabs quicker than we did. Does that tell you something about its process?
Ron
Mary, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. We really appreciate you giving us your perspective on things, you definitely know this stuff really well. So thank you. And Ed, what do we have coming up next time we meet?
Ed
Next week we're going to have replay of our Business Lessons from A Christmas Carol, and on January 1st, we are re-running our show with the great Walter Williams. And then January 8, we'll be back with a live show with Kevin Williamson of National Review.
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