Episode #257: Third Interview with George Gilder

What a show! George Gilder continues to be a great thinker and we were honored to have him on our show for the third time.

Given George is such a phenomenal guest, we wanted to be sure you had the full transcript as opposed to the cliff notes. This conversation covers concepts the George shared in his books The Israel Test and Life After Google and his AIER article, The Huawei Test.

Ronald Reagan  0:06 

Like a chrysalis were emerging from the economy of the Industrial Revolution and economy confined to unlimited by the Earth's physical resources into the economy in mind, in which there are no bounds from human imagination. And the freedom to create is the most precious, natural resource.

Ed Kless  0:38 

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the knowledge economy, sponsored by Sage, energizing business builders around the world to the imagination of our people and the power of technology. I'm Ed Kless, with my friend and co-host, Ron Baker, and on today's show, we are honored to have our third interview with George Gilder.

George Gilder is one of the leading economic and technological thinkers for the past 40 years and he is the author of 19 books including: The Israel Test and Life after Google, which was the subject of our interview with him last time in August of 2018. George is a senior resident fellow at the American Institute for Economic Research where his recent post which was entitled The Huawei test broke the internet at the beginning of June. He is a founding fellow of the Discovery Institute where he began his study of information theory. George, welcome back to The Soul of Enterprise.

George Gilder  1:33 

The organization is AIER not AEI, it is near me in the Berkshires, but my real affiliation is the Discovery Institute. I'm a co-founder and...

Ed Kless  2:00 

Sure, sorry, right.

George Gilder  2:04 

AIER is affiliation I have in the Berkshires, but it's not my chief role.

Ed Kless  2:13 

Okay, fair enough. George, thanks.

When we had you on as I said about a year ago and we were talking about Life after Google. And I wanted to ask you about life after Life after Google. How do you think the book and its ideas have been received?

George Gilder  2:31 

Well, phenomenally in China. For a while is was the #2 book in China and it was voted the most the best social science book by a group in China, so it, it really was a hit over there. It was the number 1 crypto book on Amazon for about a year. Most of the time, almost all the time. So really a success around the world. There's a version in Japan and in China I did 40 appearances and nine days. I've visited all the major universities in China. This is a global phenomenon, this book.

Ed Kless  3:40 

Yes, it truly is. And we're thrilled to have read it and talked about it with you last year. But in the years since it's been published, do you think that this the signs are still moving in the direction that you've predicted? I whenever I see a story that’s related, I think Well, I think there's another chink in the Google chain? Did you still see those signs happening?

George Gilder  4:04 

Well, I do, I think however, I do not support this full court press attack on our technology economy by the government. I think this is really just suicidal for us. I mean, these companies are not monopolies, they face devastating competition from Chinese companies, many of which are better business models than our companies do. And the impact of the government intervention has been devastating. Facebook is becoming a manipulative maze that you can hardly enter anymore. It's really in the process of being destroyed by government regulation. They can't be a merge of fake news and hate speech. And 2 billion customers. I mean, it's just if the internet and face this kind of regulation, when it started, it never would have happened. If the phone network never good face this kind of scrutiny, we'd still be using Pony Express. [Unclear.] And Google isn't even allowed to hire computer scientists anymore. Google is being sued for sex discrimination of all weird charges. You know, they're full of women all over the place but somehow the quotas don't match up with some models of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. So, Google's being sued for sex discrimination. I mean, we really are in some kind of bizarre, self-destructive mode with regard to our technology and with regard to our economic leadership.

Ed Kless  6:21 

Yeah, I have a friend, a college friend who made let's call it oodles of money in Silicon Valley. And in a recent conversation with him, he said, "They seem to be Silicon Valley as long on capital, but short on execution." Do you agree with his assessment?

George Gilder  6:36 

I am afraid you broke up during that question?

Ed Kless  6:45 

Okay. So, my friend says that Silicon Valley is long on capital, but short on execution. Do you think that that's true?

George Gilder  6:57 

Well, I really think that what's happened is that the government, the US government, is mounted an attack on our technology companies on the assumption that how they're manipulating the news or accommodating Russians or making too much money or something and the combination of these measures has been to gravely impede their interest. They have, I admit that their execution has been at fault. But it's really hard to deal with a full court press from the government making bizarre charges, that you're somehow manipulating your services all the time to favor ideological causes. And it is agreed that the mainstream media, the United States is dominantly leftist then Google as a search service based on the most the PageRanks model the most vote sources get the highest rating, then, of course, Google search is going to reflect bias the media. That's not Google's fault. That's, that's the mainstream media and, and the mainstream academy and, and I just, I just think that we're in a amazing irresponsible phase, today with regard to our technology companies. We're proud of them, but at the same time, we’re paranoid of them. And, and at the same time, we're paranoid about China. And the combination of all these fears, the nervousness that runs from Silicon Valley through the Federal Trade Commission, which falsely believes these companies are monopolies, the European Union that's paranoid about privacy and all these charges and visions I think are inconsistent with national interest and the future of our economy.

Ed Kless  9:56 

Yeah, it's been an interesting ride that led the last couple years...

George Gilder  10:02 

You know, what's going on here. I think we should do this. You know, this is not a good enough connection to handle zoom. I've got to go somewhere where I can get a better connection this this is not working. Well. I mean, I know you your jerky and I can't really hear you in this. Can you hear me? Fine? Fine.

Ed Kless  10:28 

It's sort of tough George. I think what we'll do is let's take our break now. And what we'll do is we'll get you on a phone line and we'll take it from there. I think that's probably the best choice so now a word from our sponsors.

Announcer  13:05 

You are tuned into The Soul of Enterprise with Ron Baker and Ed Kless. To find out more about our show, visit us on the web at TheSoulOfEnterprise.com. You can also chat with us on Twitter using #ASKTSOE. Now back to The Soul of Enterprise.

Ron Baker  13:23 

Well, Welcome back, everybody. We're back with my 38-year, mentor George Gilder. It's such an honor to have you back on George. And I wanted to ask you about an article that you wrote, because Ed and I posted this on our social media and boy, did it generate a lot of controversy and comments, but it was your article, the Huawei test. I guess it was first published in the American Institute for Economic Research back in June on June 3. And you start the article by quoting Peter Drucker's famous line, we say this all the time, "Don't solve problems pursue opportunities," because problems are about the past opportunities and entrepreneurship about the future. George, what is the Huawei test?

George Gilder  14:08 

Well, Huawei was what great capitalist ventures in China was started by Ren Zhengfei, who was the son of a capitalist Schroeder, and he briefly served as an engineer in the Chinese army. But the idea that he's was permanently rendered a communist apparatchik by that experience, as the US government seems to believe, is simply preposterous. If you know the guy, if you know his history is amazing success and creating a telephone equipment company that is in 170 different countries and has now leads the world in technology for 5g, the next generation of wireless technology. You just can't do this as some kind of instrument of the Communist Party. I know that's just an absurdity. Huawei a great capitalist company. And they've been more effective and marketing their technology and in developing new technology over the last five years than their American competitors. And they should, their presence in the American market would be positive and accelerate our movement to 5g. And I just think this is a protectionist move. It's simply a protectionist move. The claims of a national security threat is just implausible. We had a billion internet hacks last year of all telecom equipment. If Huawei's routers and switches are open to communist hacking, so we're all other routers and switches all through the US telecom system. And I believe we need a new architecture for the internet.

And I think the blockchain supplies such an architecture. And Huawei actually very interested in researching solutions that actually do restore some degree of security to networks around the globe. And to kick him out of the United States, because I'm just really technically preposterous grounds is it just a great mistake. And it's protectionism. That's what it is, and we should stop it.

Ron Baker  17:34 

Is there any... you point out in the article that the, you know, the litigation over the so-called theft of intellectual property has been settled? Is there any evidence for them stealing intellectual property?

George Gilder  17:51 

Yeah. You know, all, all companies are charged, frequently intellectual property. Particularly, ascendant companies that challenge an incumbent establishment, when that when the United States was emerging as the world's leading industrial power, all of Europe, you know, in England, and, you know, to auto in Germany claim that we were that Carnegie was stealing their steel fabrication gear that Edison was stealing electrical capabilities, that Ford was stealing the internal combustion engine invented in Germany. We have our constant charges back and forth among American companies that they're stealing from each other. And the Chinese play a relatively small role in these litigations in the United States, 6% of all the charges involved China. I just, and now China's in the lead. So, all these claims are just irrelevant.

Their past, they're gone. Entrepreneurship is about the future. And the future depends upon being the smartest marketing in the world, the most vibrant capitalist market at the moment. It won't be in the future, maybe Xi Jinping is going to impose a communist totalitarian Regiment in China, but he hasn't done it yet. And they have three times more IPOs than we do. They got twice as many business startups, they've got millions more engineers, they can build cities faster than we can fill in potholes and the United States.

It is just silly for us to sit over here grousing that they've stolen from us when they've been manufactured... we wanted them to manufacture all our stuff. We joined a climate change cult that wanted to suppress manufacturing anywhere it could find it. We joined a litigation cult that bankrupted 36 of our major chemical companies with spurious asbestos claims, it where we just didn't want to have manufacturing. And so, the Chinese did it for us. And in the process, they got a lot of our technology. Is that a big surprise? We are not being serious about China.

Ron Baker  21:21 

You know, John Tandy wrote an article and he and he quotes you about your trips to China and how you'd never really met a communist. And he points out that Huawei has 80,000 employees in R&D and they spent $15 billion dollars in 2018. He says, anybody who believes that innovation is done through corporate espionage doesn't understand business, because most ideas fail. So I think your point is very well taken about that, that they're an upstart, that this seems... well not an upstart, but they're threatening the status quo.

George Gilder  21:57 

Now, well, they, they've done it... and... and we have... China has flaws. However, they have, by whatever means, pretty much created an economy that's 24 times bigger than it was when Nixon and Kissinger were opening up to China. And, and they now are essentially equal us, their technology in many cases is superior, they got a smaller government as a share of GDP because of the amazing growth of their private sector. They are in a kind of reactionary period, now, through Xi. And it may be that, that their capitalist growth will be halted. But in the last year, they've opened a couple more stock markets, they've opened up their bond markets to foreign investors, they're, in general, seem to be still opening up to a great degree, even while Xi is cracking down on on any of the dissident speech or democracy movements and their economy remains capitalist.

Ron Baker  23:32 

Right. And I mean...

George Gilder  23:33 

More than more than ours, I would say.

Ron Baker  23:37 


George Gilder  23:38 

But it's sad, but it's true. So, I mean, that's, that's just and, like, and Trump is trying to fight against it. But he's destroying the effect of his policies, by adopting socialism internationally, wants to socialize trade, and since much of the global economy grows through the expansion of trade. Mercantilism of America is a is a drastic mistake.

Ron Baker  24:22 

Yeah, it seems like he wants to take us back to the mercantilism that Adam Smith. So easily destroyed. George, how do you reconcile because I mean, nope, I know, you've been anti-communist your entire life. And I nobody has been more eloquent for the defense of capitalism and liberty and the moral case for the human flourishing, that's a result. When you look at China, and you see these incredible achievements, do you think it would be even better if they were to democratize and an open up more Liberty? Is does it illustrate the power of markets that it they've been able to accomplish what they have?

George Gilder  25:06 

It does, and it does illustrate the power of markets and, and if they really abandon their progress and opening up their economy, it could be a tragedy for the world system. And that's why I think that our current approach is so negative, I mean, we're causing a kind of divorce between these two great economies. And, and it's, it's, it's a historic mistake, that they... You know, after World War II, the British faced, what I believe is the similar [unclear] the British had to give up their empire, they had to recognize that the US was ascendant, and they sought a special relationship with the US. Now we find that China, which is four times bigger population than us, and is ascendant and they're they they're not politically correct, they defy all the [broken up] and, anti-industrial Ludditism the dominates our universities. Their... And as a result, they are now really dominant, at least in Asia. And for us to think that we can retain the same kind of position we had before when they 1/24 is powerful, as they always just quixotic it's not a realistic stance, and countries that go on to base their policies on fantasies and grievance or of historic privilege are likely to fail.

Ron Baker  27:27 

Right. Yeah, we have to take a break, George. But when you wrote in The Huawei Test article, you said, "I hate to say it, but without the help of Chinese capitalism are pretty much over as a global power, and economy." Wow those are strong words, and perhaps Ed will pick this up with you on the other side. But folks, we'd like to remind you, if you want to get a hold of Ed or myself, send us an email to asktsoe@VeraSage.com. And now we want to hear from our sponsors.

Josh  27:57 

Alright, you're clear. All right.

Ron Baker  27:59 

Great stuff. George. Love it. Love the article. It was really thought provoking.

Ed Kless  28:11 

George, I'm going to pick up a little bit on Huawei as well. And I did you see that there was a on August 30. That now Huawei released a press release that the US Department of Justice is now you know, causing Huawei harm?

George Gilder  28:33 

Yeah, I saw I saw the announcement.

Ed Kless  28:39 

So I'm just going to ask you to comment on that

Ron Baker  28:41 

And the FBI is menacing their employees?

George Gilder  28:44 

Or is it just more the same? I'm, I mean, we're really trying to banish this world leading company in telecom equipment and AI and increasingly in chip design, as well, from our economy, and their company that buys 11 billion bucks a year of US chips, mostly from Intel and Broadcom and Qualcomm and then pay a billion dollars to Qualcomm for intellectual property. And, and there have been banished and, and contracts that they've made with US companies back are being suspended by the government.

Ed Kless  29:39 


George Gilder  29:39 


Ed Kless  29:41  

Coming back.

Announcer  29:42 

...Ron Baker and Ed Kless to find out more about our show, visit us on the web at thesoulofenterprise.com. You can also chat with us on Twitter using #ASKTSOE. Now back to The Soul of Enterprise.

Ed Kless  29:57 

And we are back on The Soul of Enterprise with the great George Gilder. George, I know that you saw this article, but and just not I guess we're beating a dead horse a little bit here. But I just wanted to get your commentary on this. But on August 31, The Wall Street Journal, or the Huawei issued a press release about that it is finding that that certain things are happening in the United States. And there's a big long litany of stuff, I'll read a couple of them, instructing law enforcement to threaten Huawei employees unlawfully searching and detaining what Well, well, while way employees sending FBI agents to their home, and this is what YY is now accusing the United States government of, you know, there's crazy claims that, you know, CIA says that that Huawei has been funded by military intelligence, what's going on here? Why is our government so obsessed with it? Is it is it just this jealousy that that that somebody is, is outperforming us?

George Gilder  30:54 

That's... I do believe that's the heart of it. Also, based on a real incomprehension of technology. They're... they really do believe that technology is something you can steal, and something that Huawei could become a global Colossus as a kind of socialist arm of the Chinese government, and that's just a delusional, and that's... and it's... and there may be, you know, it is that...

There is a lot of spying going on between both countries, and the Chinese have done a lot of hacking and American networks. And, and there's been a lot and the NSA is also famously aggressive in... in its cyber programs. It's... I believe that if we banish all companies, from countries that do cyber hacking, we can't have a world economy. I mean, the world economy is dependent on taking for granted that the defense and... and intelligence branches of governments are constantly maneuvering against one another and testing out various technologies and intrusive tools. And and I just... We're doing it. The Chinese may be doing it more for all I know, I were certainly, but but it's not the way to stop it... It isn't just to kick out Chinese companies from America that hurts us more than it hurts China. China actually is one of the few countries in world that's big enough to actually pursue autarky successfully, that is they can actually do without a lot of foreign trade if they have to.

Well, while, we can, and I were smaller. And we've deliberately chosen to devote our colleges to an environmental cult that is against manufacturing, against industry. It really against the future. We believe that that population growth is a burden on the planet. I mean, these beliefs have consequences. I think the most important breakthrough in economics, and the last decade is really a Martian Mars, Marian Tupy and Gale Pooley, who have... They're two economist: one from St. Andrews in Scotland and one from Brigham Young in Hawaii. And together they have taken what is in essence, my time theory of money, and shown that using time prices, the world economy is growing four times as fast as ordinary GDP measures calculate, and that and, and this changes the whole view.

I mean, if we believe that some our middle class has been victimized by, by China, however, since 1986, as Tupy and Pooley calculate the time price of a Thanksgiving dinner has dropped for an ordinary blue collar worker from 32 hours of work, I mean, 32 minutes of work, excuse me, 32 minutes in 1986 to earn money to buy a Thanksgiving dinner, elaborate Thanksgiving dinner is calculated by the Farm Bureau to 9.2 minutes in 2018 and other words, something like say a 60%, drop in the hours, which had to be expended to purchase a major compliment of foods and drink and all what you need to sustain life. And this is part of a study that covers hundreds of, of commodities.

So globalization has been wonderful for the American worker, and the American middle class. And I didn't know this myself. This is a real finding of economic science, a great breakthrough, which dismisses says all a CPI is confused. Consumer Price Index, GDP deflaters, purchasing power parity guess work all these estimates that some show that capitalism hasn't been working because of Chinese depredations. The fact is capitalism has been working better than ever. And the rise to venture technology has resulted in a global productivity boom in all capitalist countries.

Ed Kless  37:23 

Yes, I've seen that study as well. And I've actually heard Marion Tupy interviewed on a couple of podcasts that I listened to. And it's absolutely fascinating. And we'll put a link up to that in our show notes. George, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the situation in Hong Kong having just visited China and I don't think you went to Hong Kong but do you in last week, the main Mainland China seems to be backing off a little bit on first of all their demand for extradition, do you think that situation will work itself out?

George Gilder  37:55 

I hope so I spent a lot of time in China and Hong Kong and too bad if freedom was extinguished in Hong Kong. I just... We'll just see, I do believe that if you're in China, and you're part of China, the rule is you don't you don't criticize the government. That's it's not a good rule, but in exchange for it, they have a massively emancipated the Chinese economy. Now they're retrenching on their freedoms. And I think it's a mistake, but it's helped by the United States. I mean, the United States is punishing their capitalist companies. I mean, it's just an art and punishing our capitalist companies. It's, it's, it's really a tragedy in in progress. And I, I hope that the sanity is recovered.

You know, to get an idea of what's going on in China. I... I've visited Shenzhen, a lot, which is sort of the center of global industry today. Al of the phones... most of the smartphones are made there. Huawei is there, and the biggest company, the biggest tower in the middle of Shenzhen is An Ping which is an insurance company... a Chinese insurance company that has reduced the time to settle insurance claims after an automobile accident to 10 minutes. You get you get out of the car, presuming that you haven't been seriously hurt. And you take photographs on your smartphone of the damage. And they compare it against the data base of 25 million auto components, they have you described the accident to your cell phone. Their artificial intelligence tells them whether you're telling the truth or not. And in 10 minutes, you both have your money and your WeChat wallet, and you have appointment with local garage that is best to do this specific repair that's needed. And they're also doing this kind of thing in medical care. This is capitalist creativity, that is really moving beyond what our insurance companies can do. I mean, just massively beyond.

Ed Kless  41:28 

Yeah, incredible stuff. I agree, lots of terrific technologies that are coming up. And I remain hopeful that and faithful that capitalism is going to be is going to be able to outrun government intervention both here and in China. That's my belief. I've got a solid on the future. But anyway, we are we are up against our last break here, I want to remind you that you can get ahold of Ron or me by sending an email to ASKTSOE@VeraSage.com. The website is TheSoulOfEnterprise.com, where we will post show notes to this show with and our interviews with George Gilder in the past, you can listen to those as well on our archive page. But right now, a word from our sponsor and my employer, Sage.

Josh  42:08 

All right, you're clear.

Ed Kless  42:13 

Great, great stuff. Thanks, George. And on behalf of myself, because Ron is going to take you the rest of the way. Thank you, again for appearing. We so enjoy our conversations with you.

George Gilder  42:26 

Thank you so much.

Ron Baker  42:30 

George, in the last segment, and it will be our shortest one. I just want to talk to you about The Israel Test, because we didn't get a chance to talk to you on that book on the last couple shows. I just because I think it's a good interesting bridge to The Huawei Test. But it's The Israel Test was incredibly profound. So, I want to ask you some questions about that. And if we have time, I'll ask you what you think of Brexit. But what do you think Brexit? Were you? Were you for it?

George Gilder  43:06 

I kind of was, I got persuaded by Matt Ridley, who is a brilliant libertarian. And sigh and analysis of analyst of science says that the Euro bureaucrats just become more costly and intrusive than they were worth. And so, they got thrown out. And it will be up to the Brits to address the new opportunities that open up as a result, but it is part of a fragmentation of the global economy that's coming back really results.

Announcer  43:55 

... Ron Baker and Ed Kless. To find out more about our show, visit us on the web at TheSoulOfEnterprise.com. You can also chat with us on Twitter using #ASKTSOE. Now back to The Soul of Enterprise.

Ron Baker  44:10 

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with my mentor George Gilder, and George in 2009. You published a book called The Israel Test. And you wrote in there that the Israel test is a moral challenge. What is The Israel Test?

George Gilder  44:28 

How do you respond to people who excel above you in creativity, ingenuity, invention and wealth? Do you admire them? Do you emulate them? And try to exceed them? Or do you envy them and try to tear them down. And I call this The Israel Test. Israel has led the world in inventiveness and creativity and in wealth creation over the last decade or so. They become the startup nation. They've created an Iron Dome that is needed by many cities, and which has protected their people from attacks from all around the region.

And but many people hate Israel, and it's a new form of antisemitism, I think it comes from envy and resentment of people who outperform. It's a hostility to excellence is what it is because Israel by any ordinary standards is perhaps the world's most successful country for its size. And it's a world leader, and it's been attacked by enemies all around it and somehow leftists in the United States support Israel's enemies against Israel. And that strikes me as the Democratic Party pathetically failing. It's Israel Test.

Ron Baker  46:29 

But I love how you wrote that. I love how you said in that book that America's technology emblem should read, "Israel Inside" because like you said they do such a high rate of innovation per capita. And George, you also pointed out that in the 1990s and 2000s, Israel started to embrace supply side economics. And prior to that, they failed The Israel Test, didn't they?

George Gilder  46:57 

Yeah, it was terrible, they almost went bust and the 1980s they had 1000 they were on the track for 1,000% inflation. And they contrived a unity government, and eventually began emancipating their country from the socialist traditions that they inherited from the Ben-Gurion and local labor movement. And... and Netanyahu really is the principal figure and let and liberating Israel and he's a kind of Churchillian leader in Israel. And, and again, the hostility to excellence has made Netanyahu the object of incredible hostility on the left in the United States, but he is... I think he is the greatest leader of this era.

Ron Baker  48:10 

Wow. I love how you articulated the golden rule of capitalism that - The good fortune of others is also one's own. And I mean, if that's true, yeah, if that's true, and the Jewish population is something like three tenths of 1%. And yet you look at their disproportionate amount of accomplishments, whether it's innovation or Nobel Prize, or entrepreneurship, it's it really does make your argument I think that you you've always made, the inequality is actually the answer, not the problem.

George Gilder  48:47 

Yeah, That's right. Funny, however, I do believe that some of the inequality is the result of what I call hypertrophy of finance. That is $5.1 trillion of currency trading every day, every 24 hours, the world's leading industry is currency shuffling, and it doesn't even stay stable at 25 times all global GDP. And it doesn't even provide stable values that prevent monetary conflicts and trade wars and general suspicion about monetary policy and trade policy around the world.

And I believe that the cryptocosm, the rise of Bitcoin and Bitcoin’s derivatives, because Bitcoin itself is flawed. That the rise of these crypto currencies provides a remedy for this pathetic breakdown of the world economy that we're currently experiencing. And so I call it the cryptocosm, I think it will both provide a new architecture for the internet, a security architecture for the internet that stop some of this paranoid fear of foreign chips and our telecom systems and, and also provide the platform for a new global money that can repeat the success of the gold standard. And my hope for the future, I'm very optimistic because I see a whole new generation of technology emerging, I see a way to measure innovation through time prices. That is a major break, which allows us to answer some charges about the effects of inequality.

Ron Baker  51:12 

George, just I know you dealt with this in Life After Google and you just made the point. Why is Bitcoin flawed as a monetary standard?

George Gilder  51:24 

Because it's tapped. There’s only a total of 21 million ever to be minted. And this means that has the kind of deflationary bias, a monetary deflation, not the positive deflation that results from ever expanding productivity is measured in time prices, but a kind of monetary speculative factor that is destructive for Bitcoin as a replacement for gold. That's what Satoshi wanted to do. He was trying to create a replacement for gold. He imagined that gold was running out, he spent too much time in universities. And he thought gold was running out, but the fact is, we're now mining gold, the oceans from slag heaps and thinking of mining gold on the moon or from meteors, you know, gold, all the gold that's ever been mined, is still available. And, and it's not running out. And that's the reason what remains scarce when everything else becomes abundant is time and, and time as the basis of value. Money is really time I explain it in and in Life After Google and other books, and I'll be explaining it more in the future but and the time prices of Tupy and Pooley really vindicate this insight of mine that money is central as it translates the scarcity of time, which is the fundamental reality of our lives into economic activity.

Ron Baker  53:38 

Right, right. Well, you did a great job explaining the flaws in Bitcoin in in Life After Google. And folks, that's a highly recommended book. George, thank you so much for appearing on The Soul of Enterprise. Unfortunately, we fit the time wall ourselves. So, Ed what's on store for next week?

Ed Kless  53:55 

Next week, Ron we're going to have our second interview with Joe Woodard.

Ron Baker  53:58 

All right, I look forward to seeing you in 167 hours.

Ed Kless  54:13 

This has been The Soul of Enterprise, business in the knowledge economy, sponsored by Sage, energizing business builders around the world through the imagination of our people and the power of technology. Join us next week on Friday at 4pm Eastern, that's 1pm Pacific. In the meantime, please do visit us at www.TheSoulOfEnterprise.com

Josh  54:42 

All right, gentlemen, you're clear.

Ed Kless  54:44 

Alright, thanks so much. Thank you, George.

Ron Baker  54:48 

Oh, he dropped Okay. Thanks, Josh.