Adam Thierer is a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. He has spent more than 25 years covering the intersection of emerging technologies and public policy and has authored or edited eight books
Book topics range from media regulation and child safety issues to the role of federalism in high-technology markets, including Permissionless Innovation: The Continuing Case for Comprehensive Technological Freedom.
A bit more about Adam Thierer
Adam Thierer is a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. He has spent more than 25 years covering the intersection of emerging technologies and public policy and has authored or edited eight books on topics ranging from media regulation and child safety issues to the role of federalism in high-technology markets, including Permissionless Innovation: The Continuing Case for Comprehensive Technological Freedom. Previously, Thierer was president of the Progress and Freedom Foundation, director of Telecommunications Studies at the Cato Institute, and a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation. He received his MA in international business management and trade theory at the University of Maryland and his BA in journalism and political science from Indiana University.
Here are Ed’s questions from the interview…
Welcome to TSOE, Adam. We had our mutual friend Professor Deirdre McCloskey on the show last week (Episode #293), and I know you cite her a couple of times in your book [Evasive Entrepreneurs and the Future of Governance: How Innovation Improves Economies and Governments]. You write specifically McCloskey reminds us that “betterment” and “improvement” and especially ‘innovation’ were long seen in Europe as violations of God’s will or as unsettling heresies.” Explain what your relationship is to Deirdre McCloskey and how you have furthered her work in this area.
Having you and her on is the perfect one-two punch around this topic. I’d like to jump into more current events. Yesterday Donald Trump signed an Executive Order reclassifying social platforms as publishers. I wanted to get your thoughts on that?
I’m amazed by some of my conservative friends on Facebook saying what a great idea this is because they are “monopolistic.” Even if you believe that, the way to make sure they become more monopolistic is to impose more government regulations.
I kept pleading with them, “there will be a D[emocrat] in the White House someday, you do realize this, don’t you?
Let’s launch into your book. Because it’s really an input to the evasive entrepreneur, what is permissionless innovation?
I want to pick up on something you were talking about with Ron. Do you think that we in the United States in a way have over-scaled democracy in trying to apply democracy to too many people under the same place. In other words, would we better off seeing more federalism, or maybe even further down to the local level, as Thomas Jefferson envisioned, down to the ward level?
I don’t think drones are going to be necessary because with the advent of everyone homeschooling now, all the public schools will be turned into Amazon distribution centers.
What about permissionless innovation in China. Would you say more of it goes on in China, but less evasive entrepreneurship?
Are you familiar with George Gilder? He’s been a guest on the show, and last time we had him on he had written an article, The Huawei Test. What were your thoughts on that article, in which he posits that yes, the Chinese government is a problem, but Huawei itself is really very much independent?
It is clearly a difficult situation, and we are also monitoring the situation in Hong Kong. There’s just a lot of things that are boiling, let’s hope all of our optimism remains true. You did mention you’re not a crypto-anarchist, what are your thoughts long-term on Bitcoin and blockchain, understanding they are two separate things obviously?
Last question. What about the application of these technologies with regard to voting? The big thing right now is this whole mail-in voting that everyone is up in arms about. But I want to vote on my phone, that’s what I want to do?
…and here are Ron’s questions:
Adam, I love how you say, “Economists, political scientists, and business theorists don’t usually agree on much, but to the extent that they share a consensus about anything, it is that technological innovation is widely considered the main source of economic progress.” What is your definition of innovation versus invention? Do you have the same distinction that Matt Ridley uses in his recent book, How Innovation Works?
You point out the pothole vigilantes as an example of free innovation, I just loved that. You say your most controversial claim is that technological change itself may become the most important check on government power going forward. What do you mean by that?
You go even further. Most of our listeners would be familiar with smartphones, cryptocurrencies, blockchain, drones, 3D printing. You have a specific definition for these things. You call them “technologies of resistance” and how they enable “technological civil disobedience.” Can you explain your thinking there?
You’re not an anarchist, you believe there’s a pragmatic approach to regulation.
You have another great term that I just love, “regulatory entrepreneurialism,” where policy change is part of their business model. And of course everybody instantly thinks of Uber, or Airbnb, and there’s probably a host of other examples as well.
It illustrates two other concepts that you define really well, which are the “pacing problem” and the “compliance paradox.” Can you explain those two?
Another distinction you make is between technologies born free and born captive. In one podcast you did, the interviewer asked you when we’ll drone burritos. I don’t care about that, Adam, but will we get supersonic planes?
Adam, another thing I learned from your book is that Benjamin Franklin had proposed that the Great Seal of the United States include the phrase “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” You also cite Charles Murray’s 2016 book, By the People: Rebuilding Liberty without Permission, where he advises to avoid or defy regulations. You don’t take that approach, but you also you point out—and this is hard to swallow for libertarians and conservatives—that the last time a federal agency has been abolished was in 1985 with the Civil Aeronautics Board, then the Interstate Commerce Commission in 1995. How would you reform the FDA today?
Another really uncomfortable thought in your book, which comes from Tyler Cowen who has also been a guest on the show, he pointed out that modern technology (especially transportation and communications networks) has greatly facilitated the growth of government in the 20th century. Is that inevitable though?
Adam, we have about a minute, would you reform Intellectual Property law, specifically patents?
Bonus Content is Available As Well
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