We’re joined by Joe Pine on January 31, just days before the release of his long-awaited new book, The Transformation Economy (February 4, 2026). For longtime listeners, this conversation will feel both familiar and bracingly new. Familiar because we have spent the last two years exploring, applying, and occasionally interrogating the very ideas Joe now brings together in this book. New because Joe pushes the argument further and with more precision than ever before.
Building on his seminal work on experiences, Joe makes the case that economic value has moved decisively into a new domain: transformations. Not experiences staged for customers, but transformations designed with them—where the explicit aim is lasting change in who the customer is or what they are capable of becoming. That shift, Joe argues, carries profound implications not just for strategy, but for accountability, pricing, and purpose.
This episode is not a book report. It’s a rigorous conversation between fellow travelers who share a vocabulary but are still very much in productive tension. We explore where transformation fits (and doesn’t) in real organizations, why so many firms mistake motivation for method, and why treating transformation as optional is itself a category error.
If you’ve been following our ongoing work on transformation, this episode serves as both a capstone and a catalyst. If you’re new to the idea, consider this your initiation—fair warning: once you see the economy this way, it’s rather difficult to unsee it.
SHOW NOTES
Segment one
From Joe Pine at the start of the show: From the agrarian economy to the industrial economy to the service economy to the experience economy. Now consumers want transformative experiences.
“Customization is the antidote to commoditization.” —Joe Pine
“All transformation is identity change. […] Transformations last through time.” —Joe Pine
“Commodity goods and services are time well saved. Experience is time well spent. Transformation is time well invested.” —Joe Pine
Segment two
The Experience Economy by Joe Pine was originally published in April 1999! https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-Updated-Joseph-Pine/dp/1422161978
“We only ever change through the experiences that we have. As the old saying goes, we’re all the product of our experiences.” —Joe Pine
“Inputs don’t matter. Only outputs. The services you do don’t matter unless they yield the outcomes that the customer actually wants. So you need to think in terms of outcomes.” —Joe Pine
Here it “The Progression of Economic Value” from Joe that both Ed and Ron referenced: https://transformationsbook.substack.com/p/chapter-the-progression-of-economic
Segment three
Fun fact: Joe Pine used to travel with a gumball machine. Why? When a kid puts a quarter in a gumball machine, the transaction is seldom about the actual gumball so much as it is about watching the colored candy spin down and around the machine until it comes out at the bottom.
Why invest in your employees? Because they are just going to leave as they get better, right? The retort to that line of thinking is, “Well, why keep employees that aren’t getting better?”
What is one of the data points that tells Joe the transition to the Transformation Economy is working? “I know of hundreds of companies today that charge for outcomes. There should be thousands, tens of thousands.” —Joe Pine
Are there any sectors of the economy where there are not likely to be a transformation? “Every time I did that with experiences, someone would correct me.” —Joe Pine
Segment four
There is much more context to this quote but here is a snippet to trigger your curiosity: “Abraham Maslow got it wrong. He had, at the top of his pyramid, the self actualization, finding the meaning in life, transcendence…..When meaning is at the bottom of the pyramid.” —Joe Pine
A big THANK YOU to Joe Pine for joining us today. The Transformation Economy will be out in 4 days! You can pre-order it now and also check out Joe’s substack at this link https://transformationsbook.substack.com/
Also check out Strategic Horizons at https://strategichorizons.com/integration/
Bonus Content is Available As Well
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