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In this conversation, Ron and Ed take a close look at economist Russ Roberts’ critique of utilitarianism. Can moral choices can be reduced to calculations of pleasure and pain? "No," says Roberts (and say Ron and Ed). Drawing on Roberts’ essay Apples and Oranges, they explore why life’s most important questions resist tidy arithmetic.
Is it possible to weigh justice against joy? Or kindness against efficiency? Ron and Ed unpack the limits of the ledger, where human dignity, love, and meaning refuse to fit neatly into the spreadsheet.
SHOW NOTES
Segment one
This is the Russ Roberts’ article that inspired the show today https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488
“Statistics is born”….from the Russ Roberts’ article https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488 (see image below)
“And now, economics is born”…from the Russ Roberts’ article https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488 (see image below)
“Accounting is born”…from the Russ Roberts’ article https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488 (see image below)
Segment two
According to Rory Sutherland, creatives often have to run ideas by the "financial suits" (finance departments/accountants) because of a prevailing, yet flawed, business philosophy that equates value creation only with what can be easily measured and quantified in a spreadsheet
Uncharitable: How Restraints on Nonprofits Undermine Their Potential https://www.amazon.com/Uncharitable-Restraints-Nonprofits-Undermine-Potential/dp/1684581249
Ed circled the phrase “Dignity isn’t in the data set” about 10 times while he was reading the Russ Roberts article https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488
Here is some background on the “calculus of happiness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicific_calculus
Segment three
Today I learned that “food insecurity” is a term defined by the U.S. Department of Agriculture that refers to a lack of consistent access to enough food for an active, healthy life. However, “active, healthy life” is a bit, shall we say, ambiguous? https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/definitions-of-food-security
Here are the six variables Bentham used to try and calculate the value of happiness (see images below)
"Pain is just negative pleasure" is a phrase commonly used by Russ Roberts
Tesla says shareholders approve Musk’s $1 trillion pay plan with over 75% voting in favor https://www.cnbc.com/2025/11/06/tesla-shareholders-musk-pay.html
Segment four
Scroogenomics: Why You Shouldn't Buy Presents for the Holidays https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691142645/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0691142645&linkCode=as2&tag=verainst-20&linkId=6ZHK2PZTM6R74NCR
From the Russ Roberts article on the show today: “When you are deciding how to spend your charitable contributions, try to find out what the impact is on the people you are trying to help. […] — charity should help people not merely signal virtue or bring comfort to the giver.” https://russroberts.medium.com/apples-and-oranges-a-critique-of-utilitarianism-part-i-60668ee32488
The conclusion of the article today is profound. “Too much of what matters to us, is outside of any imaginable mathematics, real or imagined.”
Bonus Content is Available As Well
Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.
Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.