Certainly Lawyers Cannot Use The Subscription Business Model, Until They Can!
About Our Guest:
Jon Tobin is a graduate of the UCLA School of Law, where he studied intellectual property, business law and international law under the nation’s top-ranked practitioners. While at UCLA Law he served as one of two editors-in-chief of the UCLA Journal of International Law and Foreign Affairs. Before studying law he worked for years as a designer and software developer, so he knows what it means to work in creative industries and how things actually get done. He deals with matters involving copyrights, trademarks, software, design, licensing, business, art law and contracts. Jonathan speaks and writes regularly about legal issues facing technology and creative ventures and has given talks for the American Institute of Graphic Arts, the California Community Foundation, UCLA Law, and at a variety of design and technology conferences. Admitted to practice in California and before the federal court of the Central District of California.
Ron and Ed touched on a wide range of topics about Jon’s business model over the course of the hour-long show. Here are Ron’s questions:
Tell us about your history. You moved from a career in technology to law, and then saw how to combine them?
Did you ever work in a large firm before you started your firm?
You wrote a great article at Attorney at Work, “We Built an Affordable Subscription-Based Law Firm for Creatives,” where you discussed when you started practicing, you tried many things—seminars, consultations, etc.—but then landed on the subscription plans for businesses and created The Creators’ Legal Program. Where did you learn about the subscription model?
This model puts the relationship at the heart of the business doesn’t it?
Before we get into your pricing, one of the questions you must get from your colleagues is “How do you make money like this? What if people keep calling your, or camp out in your office? How do you answer their objections?
You set a $95 per month price level; it’s very reasonable, and it’s quite a constraint. That forced you to do some very innovative things, didn’t it?
You developed your own system to handle the volume of subscriptions. Did you develop your own applications, or were you able to buy program off-the-shelf?
You’re specialized—creative people/industries (writers, artists, app developers, clothing companies, architects). This is a great niche because it’s growing. Talk about how you market to them.
It’s easier to do subscription if you’re niched as opposed to a general practitioner, isn’t it?
Pricers have a saying: Innovate for growth and price for profit. In your article, you discussed adding additional services over time, such as live Q&A, free trademark services, and some services you’ve taken away. Talk about the process you use to decide what to keep and what to remove?
If one of your customers comes to you with a service that’s not covered by the subscription, how do you price for all the other services lawyers do?
What about litigation? [No chance!]
Could you see how it would be possible to do litigation under this model?
When you decide to provide the noncovered service for free, you’re pricing the relationship and not the services. You’re investing in the relationship and building lifetime value.
You also discussed metrics and KPIs. The subscription model demands different metrics/KPIs—they are future directed, not backward looking. You are obsessed with:
Lifetime customer value
Net Promoter Score
Churn rate
Are there any others you’ve found valuable?
Do you find that 20% of your customers utilize 80% of your resources, and many others are paying for that peace of mind?
Have you found other things you can provide to those who underutilize your services?
You wrote you want to move from hundreds of members to tens of thousands. How scalable is this model, Jon?
What advice would you give to a legal firm wanting to convert, or experiment, with this model?
…and here are Ed’s questions:
Explain your customer in-take process? Do people come to you with an event, or do they just want access to a lawyer?
You have four services listed on your website, are the other three services included if you join the subscription service?
Have people come to you with an event, join, discuss the issue with you, and then leave?
You flipped the model, charging for the consultation rather than giving it away in order ot get the services.
Have you found that you don’t need a large customer base, or are you looking for a larger customer base given your price point?
Are you comfortable at the level you’re at, or do you and your partner have plans to expand
You’ll stay in your niche, and build additional services for creative people?
When you refer customers to other firms outside of your niche, do you get referral fees?
Are you trying to develop relationships with other firms that practice within this model?
Have you given any thought to offering different levels to your subscription pricing?
Options would allow you to innovate for growth.
What were some of the unintended benefits you found in practicing this way?
How long have you been around, when did you start your firm? [March 2013, brought partner on 2016, subscription revenue became significant part of the revenue around 2018].
I notice you have a blog on your website. Do you provide those posts to your members before they go public?
Let’s talk about one of your posts, “What Does California AB5 Do?” Give us the background of this law.
What should businesses do because of AB5?
The provisions that affect Uber and Lyft are delayed until 2023, is that right?
One of the articles you wrote talks about LegalZoom (“LegalZoom Alternative: Businesses Search for the Ultimate One”). What are your thoughts on LegalZoom?
Bonus Content is Available As Well
Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.
Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.