Episode #546: The Road to Hell and Bad Marketing — Interview with Nick Asbury

NEW SHOW FEATURE: We are now LIVE streaming our shows. Want to join us live? Just click this link every Friday at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.

Ron and Ed welcome Nick Asbury to a conversation about his book, The Road to Hell: How purposeful business leads to bad marketing and a worse world And how human creativity is the way out. 

FROM THE BOOK JACKET

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, says the proverb. Never has that been truer than in the case of corporate purpose, the movement that took over the business and advertising world following the financial crisis of 2008.

Guided by the mantra ‘do well by doing good’, businesses embraced a social purpose agenda that sought to align doing good for society with doing well in the marketplace. The result, according to author Nick Asbury, has been a wave of humourless and hubristic advertising, and a spiral of worse social outcomes, as businesses wade into issues beyond their remit, while neglecting their real ethical responsibilities.

Diving into examples including Bud Light, Patagonia, Cadbury and Unilever, Nick Asbury builds a compelling case against purpose – covering what it is, where it came from, how it leads to worse marketing, and how it leads to worse social outcomes. As a positive alternative, he makes the case for creativity, cognitive empathy and valuing the human over the corporate. 

Amid the fierce and topical debate about purpose and corporate politics, The Road to Hell is a sharp and entertaining intervention, shedding light on how we got here – and where we go next.

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SHOW NOTES

Segment one

• What does Nick mean by purpose? Generally it means social purpose in the business and corporate world. A kind of reason that goes beyond simply doing what you do to make money. This is the kind of definition that Nick argues against in his book, The Road to Hell https://www.amazon.com/Road-Hell-purposeful-marketing-creativity-ebook/dp/B0DHYLXVYR?&linkCode=sl1&tag=verainst-20&linkId=349aaa20d9023274a14bd3e27e49e99c&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl 

• “We all need a sense of purpose in our lives. What I see as the commercialization of purpose is what I often cut against.” —Nick Asbury

• Nick mentioned Larry Fink several times today during the show. Here is some quick background on him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Fink 

• “What you often see these days is companies giving some money to charity and then doing a very loud marketing campaign about how purposeful they are.” —Nick Asbury

Segment two

• “Certainly in the marketing world we’ve gone through various pieces of language over the decades. There used to be lots of talk about a unique sales proposition. Then there was talk of having a mission. […] I think purpose is a more fundamental claim.” —Nick Asbury

• While talking about Nick’s book today: Purpose leads to sameness, especially with marketing. It puts the emphasis on the company rather than the customer. That’s a damning criticism. More here: https://www.amazon.com/Road-Hell-purposeful-marketing-creativity-ebook/dp/B0DHYLXVYR 

• “I don’t really care that Hellman’s Mayonnaise has a purpose statement.” —Ron Baker

• In case you are wondering if Nick’s book takes a stand on the idea of “purpose”, he does point out that the biggest preachers of purpose were WeWork, Theranos, and FTX. More here: https://www.amazon.com/Road-Hell-purposeful-marketing-creativity-ebook/dp/B0DHYLXVYR 

Segment three

• Since we are talking purpose today, this came up on the show. The March of Dimes began with the sole purpose of curing Polio. It did that. And it’s still around. 

• What motivated Nick to dive deeper into purpose? “I felt like there was a lot of advertising that wasn’t treating people very smart. If you’re making ethical claims and saying, ‘Making the world a better place with every can of beer we sell’…..It’s pretty distasteful.”

• One could argue that Simon Sinek and his “Start with Why” book is the very essence of purpose. Our guest today, Nick Asbury, had some rather insightful, science-based arguments about the “Why”. Twitter is not the place for this. Look it up during segment three of the show.

• “Produce great widgets, pay your people fairly, and be a nice place to work. That’s a pretty cool thing to do.” —Nick Asbury

Segment four

• Mentioned by Ron today on the show, The Immortal Mind: A Neurosurgeon’s Case for the Existence of the Soul https://www.amazon.com/Immortal-Mind-Neurosurgeons-Case-Existence/dp/1546006354 

• So what is Brandolini’s Law? The Bullsh*t Asymmetry Principle, also known as Brandolini’s Law, states that the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

• A big THANK YOU to Nick Asbury for joining us today. His latest book is “The Road to Hell: How purposeful business leads to bad marketing and a worse world and how human creativity is the way out” https://www.amazon.com/Road-Hell-purposeful-marketing-creativity-ebook/dp/B0DHYLXVYR 

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits. 

Episode #545: The Power of Differentiation — Interview with Barry Labov

NEW SHOW FEATURE: We are now LIVE streaming our shows. Want to join us live? Just click this link every Friday at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.

In this episode of The Soul of Enterprise, hosts Ron Baker and Ed Kless are joined by Barry LaBov, founder and CEO of LABOV Marketing Communications and Training. A two-time Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and inductee into the Entrepreneur of the Year Hall of Fame, Barry brings a wealth of experience in brand differentiation and leadership. He has authored over a dozen business books, including The Power of Differentiation, and has collaborated with iconic brands like Harley-Davidson and Audi. Beyond his marketing acumen, Barry’s background as a musician and songwriter adds a unique perspective to his approach in business. In this conversation, they delve into strategies for uncovering and celebrating what makes brands unique, fostering employee engagement, and building customer loyalty.

Buy on Amazon

SHOW NOTES

Segment one

• How does a 1980s rock band called Mark Urgent prepare someone like Barry for a career running a brand strategy firm? Managing the creatives is most certainly a challenge. https://www.markurgent.com/ 

• The best professional pricers are musicians. “In music, the perfect doesn’t exist.” —Barry LaBov

• “So many of our favorite songs were made originally from a mistake. […] I look at imperfection as a part of the creative process.” —Barry LaBov

• “This is where you lose the hearts and minds and souls of your employees.” —Barry LaBov on the commodity monster. More background here: How do you defeat the commodity monster? So many of us are being pressured to look like, feel like, and price like, everyone else. The commodity monster wants us to smooth out those rough edges that make us a little unique. When you do that, you are giving into the commodity monster. 

• “I do not create the differentiation for our clients. I discover it.” —Barry LaBov

Segment two

• “Desperate brands make desperate decisions.” —Barry LaBov

• In an industry that claims to do it all, what does Barry do to separate himself? “We really stress internally that we have to choose what words explain who we are. Words create worlds.” —Barry LaBov

• From Barry on the show today: So often the accounting firm gives away so much stuff so that you file tax returns with them. Well, big deal. Everyone files a tax return. What happens is you are going to be compared to how well you file a tax return as opposed to that one big time when you saved them from a tax bill.

• “AI is really great, properly used, if you want to get mediocre work INCREDIBLY fast.” —Barry LaBov

• From our guest today, Barry LaBov: There will always be technology that dramatically alters civilization (from the printed Bible to AI).

Segment three

• Barry wrote a great book called The Power of Differentiation and then he dropped this knowledge bomb on our show today about a client of his brand agency: “Their demographic is different but their psychographic is all the same.” https://www.labov.com/articles/power-of-differentiation/ 

• What psychographic questions would Barry add to the US Census to better serve business customers? “What is your vision for our country?” “What is it that you do not want our country to veer away from?” “What is it that you find most prideful about our country?”

• Jam sessions and Encore sessions are common tools used at Labov. More info here: https://www.labov.com/lets-jam-pod/ 

• What words do you wish more companies used to define their brand? “I think corporate America needs to be bold enough to use authentic language that is them.”

Segment four

• Hey Barry, define the word brand. “Brand is your promise to those who utilize your products/services. It’s your promise.” —Barry LaBov

• Great example of differentiation from Barry: How many people owned an MP3 player? (Not many hands go up)….how many people owned an iPod? (All the hands go up)

• A big THANK YOU to Barry LaBov for joining us today. “The Power of Differentiation: Win hearts, minds and market share” is the book that you need to check out. More here: https://www.labov.com/articles/power-of-differentiation/ 

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits. 

Episode #544: Interview with Jackie Meyer

NEWS FROM JACKIE

This is a link to the final version of the pricing calculator before the AICPA mass releases on their website for members only.

NEW SHOW FEATURE: We are now LIVE streaming our shows. Want to join us live? Just click this link every Friday at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.

In this episode of “The Soul of Enterprise,” hosts Ron Baker and Ed Kless engage in a dynamic conversation with Dr. Jackie Meyer, a trailblazer in the accounting profession. As the founder of TaxPlanIQ and host of “The Concierge CPA” podcast, Dr. Meyer has been recognized as a “40 Under 40” honoree since 2018. She is renowned for her innovative approach to tax planning and her commitment to enhancing the health, wealth, and relationships of accounting professionals. In this insightful discussion, Dr. Meyer shares her journey from establishing an award-winning CPA firm to developing a SaaS tax advisory platform. She delves into her trademarked ROI Method™, which emphasizes value-based pricing and addresses cultural challenges within firms to combat burnout and turnover. Listeners will gain valuable insights into transforming accounting practices, the impact of AI on the profession, and strategies for achieving a sustainable work-life balance.

SHOW NOTES

Segment one

• Even BEFORE TaxPlanIQ, Jackie Meyer led a boutique CPA firm in Southlake, TX, building it into an award‑winning practice focused on tax strategies and value‑based pricing. She grew the firm, boosted revenue, and eventually sold it as a seven‑figure exit

• After having her first child, Jackie recognized the burnout risk and shifted her firm to adopt a value‑pricing model centered on tax‑strategy packages. This move allowed her to triple her income while reducing client volume and workload

• In 2023, TaxPlanIQ was selected by the AICPA and CPA.com as one of only five startups spotlighted for their vision and innovation in transforming the accounting profession

• “Accountants want math.” —Jackie Meyer. No truer words could be said about the reason why hourly billing is still so stubborn in the accounting industry.

Segment two

• Why do we have a pipeline problem in the accounting industry? “Because the work people assume we do, sucks.” —Jackie Meyer 

• “We need to be putting advisory services and training into colleges and maybe even high school.” —Jackie Meyer

• A summary of Jackie’s quick thoughts on AI: There’s always the human element that we can bring to the table…..but AI does a heck of a lot and is pretty good at advisory. It is the future and we should embrace it as our BFF.

• Jackie actually wanted to be a true counselor growing up but life choices moved her to a financial counselor, otherwise known as an accountant.

Segment three

• Advice for accounting students incoming….segment three of the show today started off with a great listener comment and advice for students.

• What should accounting students look for in their first firm? It’s not necessarily the big 4 or big 100. The boutique firms also offer a great opportunity regardless of whether you are looking for a more traditional firm or a more progressive firm.

• We talked about the need to constantly repeat yourself when talking about your mission, vision, and purpose. It reminds me of Horstman’s Law: “Tell your people one thing, 7 times, and half of them will tell you they never heard it.”

• “If you dislike change, you're going to dislike irrelevance even more.” —General Eric Shinseki

Segment four

• Jackie’s take on PE: “Private equity is going to be really disappointed in years to come.”

• Ron and Jackie talked at great length about moral injury during segment four of the show today. We interviewed Dr. Wendy Dean on episode 503 about her book, “If I Betray These Words” https://www.amazon.com/If-Betray-These-Words-Clinicians/dp/1586423541 

• A big THANK YOU to Dr. Jackie Meyer for joining us today. Learn more about her at taxplaniq.com and jackiemeyercpa.com/podcast 

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits. 

Episode #543: Totally Tariff-Free Talk

NEW SHOW FEATURE: We are now LIVE streaming our shows. Want to join us live? Just click this link every Friday at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.

You’ve heard us talk tariffs. You’ve definitely heard us talk Trump’s tariffs. So this week, in a bold act of podcasting restraint, we’re doing something radical: no tariff talk whatsoever. Instead, we tackle a roundup of current business events—from curious market moves to eyebrow-raising headlines—with our signature commentary and a touch of irreverence. Think of it as a tariff-free zone for your brain. You’re welcome.

AI SHOW NOTES (has anyone seen our editor???)

1. Introduction and Disney’s Changing Business Model

• Emergence from industrial to transformation economy

• Shift in Disney’s primary profit source to theme parks and experiences

• Revenue and profit comparison between Disney’s experiences division and entertainment division

• Announcement of new Disney park in Abu Dhabi and its implications
  

2. Walt Disney’s Leadership and Legacy

• Impact of Walt Disney’s culture and customer-centric philosophy (“plussing” the guest experience)

• Discussion on Disney’s shift towards luxury branding and price increases, and the departure from Walt’s original intent

• Reflection on the resilience of Disney’s foundational culture elements amidst corporate changes
  

3. Lessons from Walt Disney and Innovation

• Walt’s approach to resistance from industry “experts” regarding Disneyland

• Comparison with Steve Jobs and skepticism over Apple Stores

• Examples of legendary figures (e.g., Walt Disney, John Lennon) who were initially discouraged

4. Continuous Improvement and ‘Plussing’

• The importance of continual innovation and surprising customers

• Disney’s philosophy of maintaining lifelong guests through constant delight

5. Evolution in Legal (and Professional) Service Pricing Models

• Survey on Australian law firms moving away from billable hours to fixed fees and capped fees

• Discussion on the persistence of timesheets despite alternative fee arrangements

• Desire for more comprehensive surveys addressing the elimination of timesheets in accounting and law firms

6. Amazon and Costco: Pricing Strategies

• Explanation of Amazon’s dynamic (algorithmic) pricing methods and ‘Project Nessie’

• Contrast with Costco’s transparent, capped cost-plus pricing approach

• Discussion of consumer perceptions and trust in different pricing models

• Debate over whether dynamic or trusted dynamic pricing is preferable

7. Client Compensation and Relationship Models in Professional Firms

• Tim Williams’s five types of client compensation profiles:

• Paying for inputs (e.g., hourly billing)

• Hiring for outputs, paying for inputs

• Hiring and paying for outputs (productized services)

• Hiring for outcomes, paying for outputs

• Hiring for and paying for outcomes (outcome-based/shared risk compensation)

• Exploration of barriers to widespread adoption of outcome-based or transformation pricing

• Subscription models as a potential bridge toward serial transformations

8. Specialization vs. “One-Stop Shop” in Agencies and Professional Firms

• Critique of “full-service” business models and argument for ‘best in class’ specialization

• Data on Fortune 1000 companies using multiple agencies/law firms

• Benefits of being a ‘first stop’ rather than a ‘one-stop’ shop

9. Trusted Advisor and Deep Client Relationships

• Skepticism toward the overuse of the “trusted advisor” designation

• Evaluating the depth and reality of advisory relationships (Joey Havens’ exercise and Mark Gandy’s CFO standard)

• Importance of being indispensable to clients through deep knowledge and involvement

10. Benefits of Narrow Positioning and Brand Polarization

• Tim Williams’s arguments for narrow vs. generalist positioning

• Being “intensely appealing” vs. “moderately appealing”

• The strength of polarizing brands (“lovers and haters”) and the danger of apathy

• Example: “I Hate Steven Singer” as branding genius; mention of “ronbakersucks.com”

11. Hybrid Work and Changing Workplace Norms

• Data on remote/hybrid work post-pandemic across several countries

• Perspectives from business leaders like Jamie Dimon on remote work

• The role of “presenteeism” and leadership in workplace flexibility

• Discussion of pros and cons of remote and in-person collaboration

12. Labor Shortages and Shifts in the Job Market

• Global complaints about labor and talent shortages across industries

• Analysis of what “labor shortage” really means—price and distribution vs. actual scarcity

• Impacts of occupational licensing and geographic mobility on labor availability

• The challenge of entry-level opportunities with AI automation

• Reflections on professional firms’ lack of vision for talent development and feeder systems (e.g., Walt Disney’s CalArts)

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits. 

Episode #542: Your Body; Your Healthcare — Interview with Dr. Jeffrey Singer

NEW SHOW FEATURE: We are now LIVE streaming our shows. Want to join us live? Just click this link every Friday at 3pm ET / 12pm PT.

In this episode of The Soul of Enterprise, Ron and Ed welcome Dr. Jeffrey A. Singer, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a seasoned general surgeon, to discuss his latest book, Your Body, Your Health Care. Dr. Singer delves into the erosion of patient autonomy in the modern healthcare system, attributing much of it to increasing government intervention. He advocates for a return to a patient-centered approach, emphasizing informed consent and individual sovereignty in medical decisions. The conversation explores the historical shift from medical paternalism to patient rights, critiques current regulatory frameworks, and offers insights into policy reforms that prioritize personal choice and freedom in healthcare.

AI SHOW NOTES (while our editor is still out)

Live Broadcast Segment Planning

Ed, Ron, and Jeffrey discussed the logistics of a live broadcast, including technical setup and the need for clear communication during breaks. Jeffrey shared his background, including his medical training and eventual move to Arizona, while Ed and Ron prepared for their segments. They agreed on the format for the show, with Ron and Ed trading off segments, and Jeffrey was informed of the live nature of the broadcast, emphasizing the importance of adhering to "Nixon rules." The show was set to begin, with Ed introducing the segment and expressing excitement about having Jeffrey as a guest.

Patient Autonomy in Healthcare Policy

Dr. Jeffrey Singer, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a practicing surgeon, discussed his book "Your Body, Your Healthcare," which explores how government interference undermines patient autonomy in healthcare decisions. He explained that his book reframes healthcare policy debates through the lens of individual liberty, drawing on his clinical experience to make complex issues accessible to a general audience. Singer highlighted the historical shift from medical paternalism to patient autonomy, using the case of Mary Schloendorff to illustrate this evolution. He emphasized that while doctors now respect patient autonomy, governments often infringe on this right by regulating medical practices and patient choices.

Medical Licensing as Protectionism

Dr. Jeffrey Singer explained how licensing laws, particularly for doctors, often serve as protectionist policies that limit competition rather than genuinely protect the public. He shared a hypothetical scenario where a licensed surgeon attempts to switch to psychiatry, only to find that private organizations like hospitals, insurance companies, and malpractice carriers restrict practice based on board certification rather than basic medical licensing. Singer traced the history of medical licensing to the 19th century, showing how the American Medical Association successfully lobbied for state licensing laws to exclude competitors, and discussed how this has created a cartel-like system that limits alternative payment models and healthcare delivery methods.

FDA's History and Political Influence

Dr. Jeffrey Singer discussed the history and impact of the FDA, noting that while its original purpose was to prevent fraud, subsequent regulations have often delayed access to medications and been influenced by political considerations. He criticized the Maha report, co-authored with Terence Keeley and Bautista Vivanco, for being poorly researched and driven by preconceived conclusions, particularly regarding the role of ultra-processed foods in health issues. The discussion also touched on the FDA's history of regulating prescription and over-the-counter medications, highlighting how political pressures and special interests have shaped drug accessibility.

Addressing Homelessness and Healthcare Barriers

Jeffrey discussed the challenges of addressing homelessness, emphasizing the need to respect individual autonomy in mental health treatment while acknowledging the complexities of the issue. He highlighted the role of factors such as zoning laws, affordable housing shortages, and regulatory barriers to accessing effective medications like clozapine. Jeffrey also addressed the impact of certificate of need laws, which he believes hinder competition and drive up healthcare costs, and he expressed optimism that some states might repeal these laws despite resistance from entrenched interests.

Podcast Plans

The meeting focused on a recent podcast featuring Dr. Jeffrey Singer from the Cato Institute, who discussed their research paper on the MAGA report and its impact, including being cited in Rolling Stone and other media outlets. Ed and Ron expressed interest in featuring Terrence Keeley on a future episode to discuss his work on government regulation, and Jeffrey offered to make an email introduction.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.