Ron and Ed were thrilled to have one of their favorite guests back on the show, Fr. Robert Sirico of The Acton Institute. He along with Rabbi Lapin inspired the name of our show. Among the topics we discussed were an update on the situation in Hong Kong especially Jimmy Lai, The Economy of Francesco, and the new papal encyclical Fratelli Tutti.
A Bit More About Fr. Sirico
Rev. Robert A. Sirico is the president and co-founder of the Acton Institute and the pastor of Sacred Heart of Jesus Parish, both in Grand Rapids, MI. A regular writer and commentator on religious, political, economic, and social issues, Rev. Sirico's contributions have been carried by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, the Washington Times, CNN, ABC, CBS, NPR, and the BBC, among others. In his recent book Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy, Rev. Sirico shows how a free economy is not only the best way to meet society's material needs but also the surest protection of human dignity against government encroachment.
Segment One: Ed’s Questions
Here's some good news, Father Sirico is ready to join us. Let me see if I can get him here and jump right in. Well welcome! We are live and on the air; we started without you father.
Fr. Robert Sirico
They never do that at Mass.
Ed Kless
That's true. No matter what you go on, because three weeks ago, our my pianist didn't show up. And I had to do acapella, Father, as the cantor.
Fr. Robert Sirico
That was fun. I've done that on my own.
Ed Kless
It's great to be with you. For those of you who are joining us, Father Sirico has been on three-and-a-half times, because one time he was on with Rabbi Lapin [Episode #226], and you should know Father, we told him that he was now one up on you and he was very happy about that.
If you want to hear father's bio, we'll print it in the show notes. But let's get right to the topics at hand. Ron and I are both following the story of Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong with much interest, and I know you happen to be personal friends with him as well. I know you interviewed him recently when you had an Acton Institute event. What's the latest Father, what's going on?
Absolutely. He’s a hero of mine, and Ron's as well. And we have Peter Robinson coming on in a couple of weeks [December 11th]. And Ron and I were both moved by Peter Robinson's interview with him as well. At the end of the interview he asks him, “Why don't you just leave, Jimmy? Why don't you just leave?”
Yes. And his family seems to have rallied around him as well and says we're with you. It's a very, very moving story.
Well, I've only got about 90 seconds or so left with you in in this segment, and in my next segment I want to talk more about the papal encyclical, but one of the things in the interview that you did with Acton Institute, you talked about how the pope refused an audience with the cardinal from China? I had not heard that.
That's astounding. It is very sad. And as I said, we'll get back and talk a little bit about Fratelli Tutti – TL;DR in the next segment but unfortunately we're against our first commercial break.
Segment Two: Ron’s Questions
Welcome back, everybody. We're honored to be here for the fourth time with Father Robert Sirico. Father, I want to get back to Jimmy Lai with you, but before that, how have you been holding up under COVID? I know you've got your church and you run a school too, right? How's that been going?
Excellent. Well, you soon will have a vaccine, hopefully.
Yes, it is a triumph of free markets, isn't it?
I'm here in California, Father, so you could imagine.
We can't have Thanksgiving, without a mask and we're not supposed to sing, it's just crazy, really is. I heard you the Acton Line podcast several times. And by the way, great podcast, I'm really enjoying it. I heard you talk about the school. And I'd never heard you tell that story before. But you really grew that school, didn't you?
That's incredible. What grades?
And Father, back to Jimmy Lai, in the last two minutes that I have in this segment with you. What should we do, but what can we do, about the situation other than perhaps offering Hong Kong residents citizenship [in the USA] like Great Britain and Australia?
I would love to see that. I just don't know if we have the political will to stand up to China. I mean, our companies are caving under their pressure, the NBA, Disney, the movies, we just don't seem to do anything.
Yes, I couldn't agree more. Well, Father, this has been great. We're up against our next break.
Segment Three: Ed’s Questions
We are back for the fourth time with our friend, Father Robert Sirico, from the Acton Institute. And Father, I want to talk to you about the papal encyclical Fratelli Tutti – TL;DR. But first, I have a question for you about last week's Gospel. I hope that if you feel your ears burning on Saturday, about five o'clock, it's because I'm thinking of you when I'm hearing a Gospel: “I wonder what Father's Sirico would think of this one,” because I know you are writing a book on the Parables. And last week, there was the Parable of the of the talents, one of the most well-known and beloved stories. I love this time of year just before Lent, especially with Matthew's Gospel, we get we get a run of them. And so this is the line that struck me: Should you not then not have put my money in the bank so that it could have gotten back with interest on my return? And what came into my mind was, there were banks? I thought banking as an institution came later? I’m sure the word “bank” wasn’t around?
I thought that was interesting. I guess it wouldn't have the same ring if he said, “Could you not have put my money with the loan sharks to earn interest?”
The encyclical issued by Pope Francis in early October [Fratelli Tutti – TL;DR]. And as a lay person who has slogged their way through it. And it was a slog. It was all over the place. And quite frankly, I'm used to a language in encyclicals that, even if I don't agree with it, is inspiring, is helpful. This just seemed to be a mishmash of like terms that the Holy Father just kind of threw out at us, with no real cohesiveness about it. Did I miss something?
Along those lines, it’s interesting that you bring that up. And by the way, I thought throughout reading the whole thing, I was saying “hashtag straw man, hashtag straw man.” We had Gary Hamel on recently who's written a book called Humanocracy [Episode #313], which is about getting rid of bureaucracy in business institutions and replacing it with humans. The institutions should be as human as the people who are in them, is his argument.
I mentioned Sage is the company that I work for, and the coming together that we have seen as a community, and I've been a 17-year remote employee with this organization. So I've never really been fully kicked in. I've always worked from home. But the coming together of the community that has happened inside this organization has been phenomenal. And I hear that over and over and over again from other people in business that they were missing the fact that their company was not a replacement for the family, but another institution that they could rely on, and I think that most people miss that about the places where they work. And in a way, I'm glad we've had the opportunity to experience that.
Along those lines on the institution, one of the things that struck me, and I hope I have this wrong, and I need to reread Fratelli Tutti again, but it almost struck me that Pope Francis has almost a lack of faith in the Church as an institution. Now he doesn't call for social programs, I get that. But he doesn't seem to say what he does want? He just doesn't seem to position that the Church could be the answer here.
I agree. I, I may have mentioned this to you in a previous conversation we have had, but I have a friend who has passed away, a libertarian, who wrote this fantastic song, a country song. It was called “Let's get Caesar involved.” And what he did was he took a couple of the Parables and it tells them in a country music way. And the response from Jesus in this this song is, well, sorry, we’ve got to get Caesar involved, and one of them is the Good Samaritan. It's hysterical because his point is good. The Good Samaritan didn't say, “Oh, there's a social program available for you.”
Anyway, we're up against our last break, Father. I could, as you well know, have talked your ear off at some events here in Dallas, and we missed you this year. Hopefully we'll be able to get back to normal on this.
Segment Four: Ron’s Questions
Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Father Sirico. Father, we're coming off a political election that looks like it's been settled. I guess my question is, do you think character is destiny? We used to have a certain standard for politicians about character and morality. And then of course, we’ve got the current person that's in there, do you think character will return? Or will it just be this pragmatic, transactional relationship with our politicians, as long as they do a few things that I like, or several things that I like, I don't care about their character. Where's character fit in, in all this?
I can't even imagine that.
Do you think we'll survive it? Adam Smith, didn't he say “there's a lot of ruin in a nation?” Do you think we will survive?
Michael Novak, who I absolutely loved, though I never got to meet him or even talk to him. But I know you knew him, he was just a wonderful thinker. He said something in one of his books that envy destroys civilizations throughout history. And when you think about all the talk about inequality, Piketty, and all these other people, they rarely mention poverty, but they talk a lot about inequality. Is inequality just disguised envy?
It's one of the seven deadly sins, right?
Father, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you how your brother is doing, Tony. Has he been in anything we might have seen? I know he was in the Sopranos.
Beautiful. Last time we had you on you. You said here that you were working on a book on the parables. But you also had mentioned two other books you were working on, one hundred and one questions, and then your memoir.
Excellent. Well, Father, we'll have you back on. Thank you so much for appearing on The Soul of Enterprise. It’s always such a privilege to be able to talk to you.
